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Jaack
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN.
Last edited by Jaack on Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theking
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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When torturing someone, there are three things you chiefly are looking for.
1st - Get this information you need. 99% of the time the detainee will spew some incoherent false crap. You know he's lying, but you've also heard the same practiced, garbled BS from 3-4 other people and now it's just been made much easier to make a connection and get to the truth.
2nd - Get the information you don't need. Usually something simple, such as "what's being planned next", don't ask where or how, just open up a window of opportunity where they think they can gain control of the situation...when they actually are not. Why do you do this? Because you want the detainee to feel guilty.
3rd - Cease torture tactics and start the mindfuck. The detainee will be in a weird state somewhere between shock, paranoia and fear. They are slightly incoherent. Asking direct questions is utterly useless. Dance around, play the game with them, tell THEM how they work and they will correct you. Play it well enough and you can get all the information you WANT. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| theking wrote: |
When torturing someone, there are three things you chiefly are looking for.
1st - Get this information you need. 99% of the time the detainee will spew some incoherent false crap. You know he's lying, but you've also heard the same practiced, garbled BS from 3-4 other people and now it's just been made much easier to make a connection and get to the truth.
2nd - Get the information you don't need. Usually something simple, such as "what's being planned next", don't ask where or how, just open up a window of opportunity where they think they can gain control of the situation...when they actually are not. Why do you do this? Because you want the detainee to feel guilty.
3rd - Cease torture tactics and start the mindfuck. The detainee will be in a weird state somewhere between shock, paranoia and fear. They are slightly incoherent. Asking direct questions is utterly useless. Dance around, play the game with them, tell THEM how they work and they will correct you. Play it well enough and you can get all the information you WANT. |
You watch too many movies. |
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"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Washington Post, Sunday, December 16, 2007; Page B03
5 Myths About Torture and Truth
By Darius Rejali,
professor of political science at Reed College and the author of the recently published "Torture and Democracy."
So the CIA did indeed torture Abu Zubaida, the first al-Qaeda terrorist suspect to have been waterboarded. So says John Kiriakou, the first former CIA employee directly involved in the questioning of "high-value" al-Qaeda detainees to speak out publicly. He minced no words last week in calling the CIA's "enhanced interrogation techniques" what they are.
But did they work? Torture's defenders, including the wannabe tough guys who write Fox's "24," insist that the rough stuff gets results. "It was like flipping a switch," said Kiriakou about Abu Zubaida's response to being waterboarded. But the al-Qaeda operative's confessions -- descriptions of fantastic plots from a man who intelligence analysts were convinced was mentally ill -- probably didn't give the CIA any actionable intelligence. Of course, we may never know the whole truth, since the CIA destroyed the videotapes of Abu Zubaida's interrogation. But here are some other myths that are bound to come up as the debate over torture rages on.
1. Torture worked for the Gestapo.
Actually, no. Even Hitler's notorious secret police got most of their information from public tips, informers and interagency cooperation. That was still more than enough to let the Gestapo decimate anti-Nazi resistance in Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, France, Russia and the concentration camps.
Yes, the Gestapo did torture people for intelligence, especially in later years. But this reflected not torture's efficacy but the loss of many seasoned professionals to World War II, increasingly desperate competition for intelligence among Gestapo units and an influx of less disciplined younger members. (Why do serious, tedious police work when you have a uniform and a whip?) It's surprising how unsuccessful the Gestapo's brutal efforts were. They failed to break senior leaders of the French, Danish, Polish and German resistance. I've spent more than a decade collecting all the cases of Gestapo torture "successes" in multiple languages; the number is small and the results pathetic, especially compared with the devastating effects of public cooperation and informers.
2. Everyone talks sooner or later under torture.
Truth is, it's surprisingly hard to get anything under torture, true or false. For example, between 1500 and 1750, French prosecutors tried to torture confessions out of 785 individuals. Torture was legal back then, and the records document such practices as the bone-crushing use of splints, pumping stomachs with water until they swelled and pouring boiling oil on the feet. But the number of prisoners who said anything was low, from 3 percent in Paris to 14 percent in Toulouse (an exceptional high). Most of the time, the torturers were unable to get any statement whatsoever.
And such examples could be multiplied. The Japanese fascists, no strangers to torture, said it best in their field manual, which was found in Burma during World War II: They described torture as the clumsiest possible method of gathering intelligence. Like most sensible torturers, they preferred to use torture for intimidation, not information.
3. People will say anything under torture.
Well, no, although this is a favorite chestnut of torture's foes. Think about it: Sure, someone would lie under torture, but wouldn't they also lie if they were being interrogated without coercion?
In fact, the problem of torture does not stem from the prisoner who has information; it stems from the prisoner who doesn't. Such a person is also likely to lie, to say anything, often convincingly. The torture of the informed may generate no more lies than normal interrogation, but the torture of the ignorant and innocent overwhelms investigators with misleading information. In these cases, nothing is indeed preferable to anything. Anything needs to be verified, and the CIA's own 1963 interrogation manual explains that "a time-consuming delay results" -- hardly useful when every moment matters.
Intelligence gathering is especially vulnerable to this problem. When police officers torture, they know what the crime is, and all they want is the confession. When intelligence officers torture, they must gather information about what they don't know.
4. Most people can tell when someone is lying under torture.
Not so -- and we know quite a bit about this. For about 40 years, psychologists have been testing police officers as well as normal people to see whether they can spot lies, and the results aren't encouraging. Ordinary folk have an accuracy rate of about 57 percent, which is pretty poor considering that 50 percent is the flip of a coin. Likewise, the cops' accuracy rates fall between 45 percent and 65 percent -- that is, sometimes less accurate than a coin toss.
Why does this matter? Because even if torturers break a person, they have to recognize it, and most of the time they can't. Torturers assume too much and reject what doesn't fit their assumptions. For instance, Sheila Cassidy, a British physician, cracked under electric-shock torture by the Chilean secret service in the 1970s and identified priests who had helped the country's socialist opposition. But her devout interrogators couldn't believe that priests would ever help the socialists, so they tortured her for another week until they finally became convinced. By that time, she was so damaged that she couldn't remember the location of the safe house.
In fact, most torturers are nowhere near as well trained for interrogation as police are. Torturers are usually chosen because they've endured hardship and pain, fought with courage, kept secrets, held the right beliefs and earned a reputation as trustworthy and loyal. They often rely on folklore about what lying behavior looks like -- shifty eyes, sweaty palms and so on. And, not surprisingly, they make a lot of mistakes.
5. You can train people to resist torture.
Supposedly, this is why we can't know what the CIA's "enhanced interrogation techniques" are: If Washington admits that it waterboards suspected terrorists, al-Qaeda will set up "waterboarding-resistance camps" across the world. Be that as it may, the truth is that no training will help the bad guys.
Simply put, nothing predicts the outcome of one's resistance to pain better than one's own personality. Against some personalities, nothing works; against others, practically anything does. Studies of hundreds of detainees who broke under Soviet and Chinese torture, including Army-funded studies of U.S. prisoners of war, conclude that during, before and after torture, each prisoner displayed strengths and weaknesses dependent on his or her own character. The CIA's own "Human Resources Exploitation Manual" from 1983 and its so-called Kubark manual from 1963 agree. In all matters relating to pain, says Kubark, the "individual remains the determinant."
The thing that's most clear from torture-victim studies is that you can't train for the ordeal. There is no secret knowledge out there about how to resist torture. Yes, there are manuals, such as the IRA's "Green Book," the anti-Soviet "Manual for Psychiatry for Dissidents" and "Torture and the Interrogation Experience," an Iranian guerrilla manual from the 1970s. But none of these volumes contains specific techniques of resistance, just general encouragement to hang tough. Even al-Qaeda's vaunted terrorist-training manual offers no tips on how to resist torture, and al-Qaeda was no stranger to the brutal methods of the Saudi police.
And yet these myths persist. "The larger problem here, I think," one active CIA officer observed in 2005, "is that this kind of stuff just makes people feel better, even if it doesn't work."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html |
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__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN. |
Torturing is the MANLY thing to do, is it? |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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Jaack
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Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN. |
Torturing is the MANLY thing to do, is it? |
No the manly thing to do is put the prisoners in a day spa. feed them grapes and honey, and wine and caress their lice infested beards. Tell them how great they are and cheer them each time their buddies kill more people.
TARD |
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Computer_Guy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN. |
Torturing is the MANLY thing to do, is it? |
No the manly thing to do is put the prisoners in a day spa. feed them grapes and honey, and wine and caress their lice infested beards. Tell them how great they are and cheer them each time their buddies kill more people.
TARD |
Would you be so pro torture if some cop had your kid by the nadds trying to force him to claim the dope he just planted in his car:?:
This torture thing may have started out on Terrorist, but I'd bet you a bottle of your favorite it won't end there.
Both the tortured, and the one inflicting it become less human in the process. Just let a few like that get into the police force it won't be long. |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Why is it that all the military manuals state that torture is ineffective? Why do generals say the same?
Why continue to practice that which is ineffective? Could there be other motives? Let's go conspiracy here  ....manchurian candidate? |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
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Jaack
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Computer_Guy wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN. |
Torturing is the MANLY thing to do, is it? |
No the manly thing to do is put the prisoners in a day spa. feed them grapes and honey, and wine and caress their lice infested beards. Tell them how great they are and cheer them each time their buddies kill more people.
TARD |
See that's what you weak minded lefties do. You cannot keep an argument on the facts you interseprse things that are in no way similar.
We're talking MILITARY action here. The military is for REAL MEN, not drafted weenies such as yourself. Sorry they waster their time with you driving a truck, and no IDK that you served you are basically afterbirth. you served a purpose cause you had to be there but after the action you're worthless.
So ill cut the eyelids off and moohamet midget who has any information about the last time he whacked off.
Would you be so pro torture if some cop had your kid by the nadds trying to force him to claim the dope he just planted in his car:?:
This torture thing may have started out on Terrorist, but I'd bet you a bottle of your favorite it won't end there.
Both the tortured, and the one inflicting it become less human in the process. Just let a few like that get into the police force it won't be long. |
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_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." - JFK |
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Jaack
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Computer_Guy wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| Jaack wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| And still no answers from the pro-torture mob. |
Take yourself to the nearest mental health professional and get your balls back.
There's an answer from a pro-torture MAN. |
Torturing is the MANLY thing to do, is it? |
No the manly thing to do is put the prisoners in a day spa. feed them grapes and honey, and wine and caress their lice infested beards. Tell them how great they are and cheer them each time their buddies kill more people.
TARD |
Would you be so pro torture if some cop had your kid by the nadds trying to force him to claim the dope he just planted in his car:?:
This torture thing may have started out on Terrorist, but I'd bet you a bottle of your favorite it won't end there.
Both the tortured, and the one inflicting it become less human in the process. Just let a few like that get into the police force it won't be long. |
See that's what you weak minded lefties do. You cannot keep an argument on the facts you intersperse things that are in no way similar.
We're talking MILITARY action here. The military is for REAL MEN, not drafted weenies such as yourself. Sorry they wasted their time with you, and your ilk, driving a truck, and no IDK that you served you are basically afterbirth. You served a purpose cause you had to be there but after the action you're worthless.
So I'll cut the eyelids off and moohamet midget who has any information about the last time he whacked off. |
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_________________
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." - JFK |
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Computer_Guy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Jaack wrote: |
See that's what you weak minded lefties do. You cannot keep an argument on the facts you intersperse things that are in no way similar.
We're talking MILITARY action here. The military is for REAL MEN, not drafted weenies such as yourself. Sorry they wasted their time with you, and your ilk, driving a truck, and no IDK that you served you are basically afterbirth. You served a purpose cause you had to be there but after the action you're worthless.
So I'll cut the eyelids off and moohamet midget who has any information about the last time he whacked off. |
Spoken like a true chickenhawk, your all hat and no cattle big mouth 
A really pathedic simulation of a man, totally pre-occupied with the sex lives of other men   Even midget Arab men 
It wouldn't be prudent to pressume you know anything about me or my service Rambo wannabe |
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Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind.
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martiandrifter01
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Under normal circumstances, against a 'civilized' enemy, I would never condone torture.
Given the extremists being fought, with their tendency to torture and murder in revolting ways, I don't see why anyone here is debating the issue. With what we know of how prisoners ('hostages') are treated by the terrorist groups, there is no form of torture we have EVER practiced which could be considered more than love pats.
I cannot honestly believe that memories of BV members are so short, especially those of fellow veterans.
Water-boarding, my arse. Keel-haul the SOBs and break out the bullwhips. NOBODY mutilates my fellow countrymen and gets away with it!
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| martiandrifter01 wrote: |
Under normal circumstances, against a 'civilized' enemy, I would never condone torture.
Given the extremists being fought, with their tendency to torture and murder in revolting ways, I don't see why anyone here is debating the issue. With what we know of how prisoners ('hostages') are treated by the terrorist groups, there is no form of torture we have EVER practiced which could be considered more than love pats.
I cannot honestly believe that memories of BV members are so short, especially those of fellow veterans.
Water-boarding, my arse. Keel-haul the SOBs and break out the bullwhips. NOBODY mutilates my fellow countrymen and gets away with it!
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We should torture because the enemy is uncivilized?
We should torture out of vengeance?
We should torture as revenge for torture?
I see. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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martiandrifter01
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Realistically speaking, Persona, this argument could go round and round forever.
Bottom line: Those things done because of War will never fit into the mold of 'civilized' society. Would you prefer we just shoot them all and let God sort them out?
Cruelties of War:
Artillery, which is blind, as are 'dumb' bombs. A fundamental part of warfare for over 250 years and counting.
Napalm, regardless of its current name. Be it Greek Fire or Incindigel IX, it's still nasty stuff but can save the tails of outnumbered or ambushed troops.
Stray bullets, be they 'friendly' fire or other, can kill anyone within their range and I've never seen a sentimental bullet.
No sane war-fighter ever really wants to fight a war. But we will defend that which we believe in to our dying breath and use every means at our disposal to ensure our victory. When Man finally outgrows war, its atrocities will go away. Just don't hold your breath...
More likely, we'll meet a warlike spacefaring race and be subjugated or destroyed.
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theking
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Posts: 531
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| martiandrifter01 wrote: |
Under normal circumstances, against a 'civilized' enemy, I would never condone torture.
Given the extremists being fought, with their tendency to torture and murder in revolting ways, I don't see why anyone here is debating the issue. With what we know of how prisoners ('hostages') are treated by the terrorist groups, there is no form of torture we have EVER practiced which could be considered more than love pats.
I cannot honestly believe that memories of BV members are so short, especially those of fellow veterans.
Water-boarding, my arse. Keel-haul the SOBs and break out the bullwhips. NOBODY mutilates my fellow countrymen and gets away with it!
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We should torture because the enemy is uncivilized?
We should torture out of vengeance?
We should torture as revenge for torture?
I see. |
Woah woah woah...
Who is "we"? |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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