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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Supporting Those Striving for Freedom and Democracy Abroad |
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The spread of liberty and democracy makes the world safer for America. Former adversaries like Japan and the once-communist countries of central Europe became our close allies when they became democratic. Spreading liberty has been a key part of America's identity since the first settlers arrived here. No two democracies with universal suffrage have ever gone to war with each other. This is one reason that Americans are rightly concerned about the nuclear capabilities of non-democracies like Iran and Pakistan, but considerably less so for democracies such as India and France.
No democracy is perfect. Our own history includes more than a decade of crisis before our constitution was adopted in 1787 and a massive and bloody civil war. Today, we see in Iraq the extreme challenges that new democracies can face. But as Winston Churchill famously remarked, "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Only governments that rule with the consent of the governed are truly legitimate and likely to succeed and prosper in the long run. Furthermore, in our long war against the Irreconcilable Wing of Islam, we must realize that functioning democracies establish conditions that are the least favorable to the global jihad and those who would support its violent means. On the other hand, corrupt, dictatorial, and violent regimes in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world have helped alienate and radicalize a generation of terrorists. Democracies with the rule of law give people a say in their future and provide a peaceful means of remedying grievances. Over the long run, the spread of democracy will help win the long war with the Irreconcilable Wing of Islam by reducing support for jihadists and their recruitment efforts.
Democracy has made great strides around the globe in the last two decades. However, opponents of liberty have recently shown resilience. In Russia and Venezuela, elected leaders have undermined the rule of law and other necessary pillars of democracy. Furthermore, these and other authoritarians have begun in the last decade a concerted effort to undermine democracy abroad.
The U.S. does not "export democracy" but does have a key role in encouraging and supporting those working for democracy in repressive nations, and those trying to stabilize young democracies. American presidents should speak out on behalf of freedom, and leaders of freedom movements and democracies should always be welcome in America. In transitional democracies, like Indonesia, we should support the rule of law and other pillars of democracy through grants and programs like those funded through the National Endowment for Democracy. In oppressive nations where activities like this are not possible, such as Iran, we should covertly support freedom movements as we did in the Cold War.
http://www.americansolutions.com/General/?Page=625c6731-e59b-49af-8aeb-88981a7cbc16 |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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That's all fine and good... Except for the sorry ass fact that while Bush and Co. "Spread Liberty And Democracy Around The World", they institute things like the Patriot Act, allowing them to wiretap us and read our emails without warrants, they designate alleyways 5 blocks away from conventions as free speech zones, and have made it "Unpatriotic" to disagree with the government, allowing for people to be tasered because they speak their mind or ask the people who work for THEM too many questions that their servants don't like. And their BS doesn't stop there, this is a group of people who talk about how wrong it is to have Islamic theocratic governments, going as far as sacrificing the lives of OTHER PEOPLES children to fight against it, but at the same time talk about how they would support an amendment banning same sex marriage based on their religious belief that God wants only men and women getting married, naaaaah that isn't f'n hypocritical at all.
Yeah, 3 cheers for spreading liberty and democracy around the world... While putting limits on it at home.  |
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"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands, and everybody's fighting for their promised land" |
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theking
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Why does anyone care about government surveillance.
Don't do anything illegal, or plan anything illegal and you don't have a problem. |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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fortwynt
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Joined: Mar 05, 2008
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Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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That reminds me of what certain folks would say to me when I bitch about cops illegally searching a persons car or person, or rather being very persuasive is getting one to relinquish their right against said search.
"if you aren't doing anything wrong, why worry?"
I can say without hesitation that even knowing they wouldn't find a scrap of anything in my car, i would STILL refuse a search....just on principle alone...and i would gladly sit there for 30 minutes while they waste their time searching anyway, as they obviously will of course.
In any case, that isn't the point...the point is when government is just allowed to spy on you at will, and basically do to you as they please, what separates us from any of the most vile of nations? Not much, I tell you. |
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You can't comfort the afflicted without afflicting the comfortable.
--Princess Diana of Wales |
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theking
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
That reminds me of what certain folks would say to me when I bitch about cops illegally searching a persons car or person, or rather being very persuasive is getting one to relinquish their right against said search.
"if you aren't doing anything wrong, why worry?"
I can say without hesitation that even knowing they wouldn't find a scrap of anything in my car, i would STILL refuse a search....just on principle alone...and i would gladly sit there for 30 minutes while they waste their time searching anyway, as they obviously will of course.
In any case, that isn't the point...the point is when government is just allowed to spy on you at will, and basically do to you as they please, what separates us from any of the most vile of nations? Not much, I tell you. |
I could imagine refusing a search, it takes up your time. However, wiretapping your phone calls & emails is hazardous...how?
No one even knew when it was happening, so why care? |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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evutch
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Joined: Sep 24, 2006
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Location: the lions den, reptiles lair, and satans playground-DC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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THAT's a GREAT attitude kingy!
if i don't know, then do it?
oh boy, it's going to be SO easy to subvert this country.
and it's FUNNY!
the feared "lefties" don't have to do ANYTHING!
the righties are doing it well enough alone!
wave the flag, salute and get a hard on.. |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| theking wrote: |
Why does anyone care about government surveillance.
Don't do anything illegal, or plan anything illegal and you don't have a problem. |
Why care?
Because not having a government do that to its citizens is what's supposed to separate America from the countries that we are supposedly bringing liberty and freedom to. Thousands of American soldiers have been killed in the line of duty to supposedly afford that freedom to Iraqi's.
It's easy to get caught up in the "If you aren't doing anything illegal why worry" mentality... I did. But when you do so, you lose sight of what makes us better than the enemy we are all so willing to sacrifice our kids lives to defeat. What is the point of sacrificing all these young lives for the freedom of others, when you are so willing to give up those very same freedoms? What is the point of sacrificing all these young lives to defeat an enemy that uses religious doctrine to impose its will on others, when at the same time the people in this country who support this sacrifice use religious doctrine to impose their will on their fellow American's, and support it's politicians creating laws and new amendments as well to do so, and NEVER pass up the opportunity to inform everyone that "America is a Christian society" and that's the way the founding fathers made it?
The founding fathers are rolling in their collective graves right now... The founding fathers were well aware of foreign threats, and they also had people living among them that were 100% on the side of the enemy, but they didn't go around silencing these people, they made laws protecting their rights to speak their mind!
Use some common sense. |
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"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands, and everybody's fighting for their promised land" |
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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| rob61872 wrote: |
| theking wrote: |
Why does anyone care about government surveillance.
Don't do anything illegal, or plan anything illegal and you don't have a problem. |
Why care?
Because not having a government do that to its citizens is what's supposed to separate America from the countries that we are supposedly bringing liberty and freedom to. Thousands of American soldiers have been killed in the line of duty to supposedly afford that freedom to Iraqi's.
It's easy to get caught up in the "If you aren't doing anything illegal why worry" mentality... I did. But when you do so, you lose sight of what makes us better than the enemy we are all so willing to sacrifice our kids lives to defeat. What is the point of sacrificing all these young lives for the freedom of others, when you are so willing to give up those very same freedoms? What is the point of sacrificing all these young lives to defeat an enemy that uses religious doctrine to impose its will on others, when at the same time the people in this country who support this sacrifice use religious doctrine to impose their will on their fellow American's, and support it's politicians creating laws and new amendments as well to do so, and NEVER pass up the opportunity to inform everyone that "America is a Christian society" and that's the way the founding fathers made it?
The founding fathers are rolling in their collective graves right now... The founding fathers were well aware of foreign threats, and they also had people living among them that were 100% on the side of the enemy, but they didn't go around silencing these people, they made laws protecting their rights to speak their mind!
Use some common sense. |
Having a government that allows people to conspire against other people is an ADVANTAGE?
They have places like that. It's called Pakistan. |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| This is why the average American is simply incapable of suggesting any useful reform on the United States. The United States is a collective of people, not your individual self. Stop applying your individualism to the collective, please. |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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evutch
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Location: the lions den, reptiles lair, and satans playground-DC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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you're sounding like a good commie there kingy..
or a good nazi..
collective eh?
this is why i love you righties!
i HOPE you get what you want..
then the end can start. |
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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
Posts: 2117
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rob61872 wrote: |
That's all fine and good... Except for the sorry ass fact that while Bush and Co. "Spread Liberty And Democracy Around The World", they institute things like the Patriot Act, allowing them to wiretap us and read our emails without warrants, they designate alleyways 5 blocks away from conventions as free speech zones, and have made it "Unpatriotic" to disagree with the government, allowing for people to be tasered because they speak their mind or ask the people who work for THEM too many questions that their servants don't like. And their BS doesn't stop there, this is a group of people who talk about how wrong it is to have Islamic theocratic governments, going as far as sacrificing the lives of OTHER PEOPLES children to fight against it, but at the same time talk about how they would support an amendment banning same sex marriage based on their religious belief that God wants only men and women getting married, naaaaah that isn't f'n hypocritical at all.
Yeah, 3 cheers for spreading liberty and democracy around the world... While putting limits on it at home. |
...you get a friggin cheer for not, right? You in jail gettin' tasered are ya? Musta been one o' dem ocassional f ups we get in this damn place..you know, the place where i can damn near say anything i want w/ out being summarily shot?
Stupids get tasered for teasin dogs-fugin bright. You could give a rats ass about coughin' up a suggestion as to how we could monitor whack jobs molin' around to find an excuse to blow your old lady up in the name of AllaH? ..Oh, ya...the prob don't exist. The proof? Not one attack since 9/11. Screw the patriot act. We ain't got a better alternative you may 'ave offered any how, right? Good.
Say hey to Comrade Evut for me while you tell us not to give a sh*t on account of the hypocrisy of self-defense..oh crap, there i go again. Sorry, i fergot they ain't no prob to worry..say hey to handyprick while your at to, he ain't worried...and hey to Naei Naei; she has a lot of supporters against the Patriot act as well, The PLO...oh double damn...we ain't been hit or hassled by them. Musta had ma head in a deep dark; brown; moist korner of the planet.
WTF. Lets forget about Iran while were at it. Israel will invite us in for coffee and cakes as soon as they slam 'em with a nuke we sold em...until then, fug it. Their all a bunch of freedom wrenchers any way. ...their just not relative enough... |
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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Posts: 531
Location: Washington, D.C.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| evutch wrote: |
you're sounding like a good commie there kingy..
or a good nazi..
collective eh?
this is why i love you righties!
i HOPE you get what you want..
then the end can start. |
I'm not sounding like a commie, but to insist that 'you' know best for 'the majority' is lol worthy.
Just like your life and your posts. |
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"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's very simple, because considering someone "potentially criminal" before that person has ever committed a crime flies in the face of everything we are "supposed" to believe in, in this nation.
One could easily say "yes but but what if it prevents an attack, wouldn't you rather the government spy on people than have another 9/11"
Obviously one can see that this argument could probably be applied to jsut about anything the government wants to do in the name of "national security"....where does it end? It doesnt. SO long as there are no checks on this type of thing then it WILL eventually go farther and farther.
Same mindset as those who say "So what if we torture? Long as it prevents another 9/11" and so on and so forth....
I have an idea....let 9/11 scare you so badly you are literally wililng to just say to hell with everything and let the government just have it's way with you and those you love. SURELY they wouldn't take advantage of that...nah, never.
Right? |
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_________________
You can't comfort the afflicted without afflicting the comfortable.
--Princess Diana of Wales |
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lashmar
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Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Tell me something scream, when did the US. Get rid of coloured busses, colourer schools and the like. The US. Just like the rest of the world isn’t free.
A road is the perfect example; you can go anywhere you want so long as it’s where they said you can go there.
The US. Is free compared to some places in the world, but it’s nowhere near it my friend.
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That's all fine and good... Except for the sorry ass fact that while Bush and Co. "Spread Liberty And Democracy Around The World", they institute things like the Patriot Act, allowing them to wiretap us and read our emails without warrants, they designate alleyways 5 blocks away from conventions as free speech zones, and have made it "Unpatriotic" to disagree with the government, allowing for people to be tasered because they speak their mind or ask the people who work for THEM too many questions that their servants don't like. And their BS doesn't stop there, this is a group of people who talk about how wrong it is to have Islamic theocratic governments, going as far as sacrificing the lives of OTHER PEOPLES children to fight against it, but at the same time talk about how they would support an amendment banning same sex marriage based on their religious belief that God wants only men and women getting married, naaaaah that isn't f'n hypocritical at all.
Yeah, 3 cheers for spreading liberty and democracy around the world... While putting limits on it at home. |
well said rob. |
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_________________
The sixtheenth commandment “And when asked why, thy in power, shall do, Bugger all to help the general public, yea must answer `don’t worry sheep, lessons have been learned” and if thy sheep are still pissed, say `sorry`” |
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theking
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Aug 19, 2008
Posts: 531
Location: Washington, D.C.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
It's very simple, because considering someone "potentially criminal" before that person has ever committed a crime flies in the face of everything we are "supposed" to believe in, in this nation.
One could easily say "yes but but what if it prevents an attack, wouldn't you rather the government spy on people than have another 9/11"
Obviously one can see that this argument could probably be applied to jsut about anything the government wants to do in the name of "national security"....where does it end? It doesnt. SO long as there are no checks on this type of thing then it WILL eventually go farther and farther.
Same mindset as those who say "So what if we torture? Long as it prevents another 9/11" and so on and so forth....
I have an idea....let 9/11 scare you so badly you are literally wililng to just say to hell with everything and let the government just have it's way with you and those you love. SURELY they wouldn't take advantage of that...nah, never.
Right? |
Why is considering someone a potential criminal bad? Is it a crime to be a potential criminal?
No it's not. It's just flags you for social stupidity. |
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_________________
"The difference between you and I is that I came from nothing, thus have nothing to ever truly lose." |
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