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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
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 Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: Democracy |
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| A democracy will vote itself out. Ben Franklin. |
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inja
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Very true. But a Republic doesn't survive either. Nothing really does. It all comes and goes.
Maybe one day we will figure out how to preserve individual freedoms for all. |
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martiandrifter01
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Inja, is there some particular individual freedom you lack?
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inja
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Certainly. I smoke, I lack a variety of freedoms when it comes to that one. Jaywalking is illegal. There are all kinds of things that are invading ones personal freedoms. Things we just have accepted as every day life.
But I wasn't referring to myself when I spoke of individual freedoms. I was viewing it more from a global scale. I find that life = life and mine doesn't have a greater value just because I was born in this country. |
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Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| inja wrote: |
Certainly. I smoke, I lack a variety of freedoms when it comes to that one. Jaywalking is illegal. There are all kinds of things that are invading ones personal freedoms. Things we just have accepted as every day life.
But I wasn't referring to myself when I spoke of individual freedoms. I was viewing it more from a global scale. I find that life = life and mine doesn't have a greater value just because I was born in this country. |
What you deem as personal freedoms, are more than likely not so personal - Jaywalking and smoking for example.
Personally, I think it should be illegal to feed your family fast food more than 3 times a week, because otherwise it's criminal to the family as a whole. The stratosphere of your personal life is much smaller than you can possibly (or seemingly) percieve. |
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inja
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| theking wrote: |
| inja wrote: |
Certainly. I smoke, I lack a variety of freedoms when it comes to that one. Jaywalking is illegal. There are all kinds of things that are invading ones personal freedoms. Things we just have accepted as every day life.
But I wasn't referring to myself when I spoke of individual freedoms. I was viewing it more from a global scale. I find that life = life and mine doesn't have a greater value just because I was born in this country. |
What you deem as personal freedoms, are more than likely not so personal - Jaywalking and smoking for example.
Personally, I think it should be illegal to feed your family fast food more than 3 times a week, because otherwise it's criminal to the family as a whole. The stratosphere of your personal life is much smaller than you can possibly (or seemingly) percieve. |
Well Jester....it is quite personal. There are many places in my personal life "I choose" to not smoke because of my child and there are plenty of places in life where I can't smoke where I happen to agree with. Such as clothing stores, groceries stores....right next to the gas pump while pumping gas....but since we have so many non smoking areas I find the laws to be rather pushy and non smokers feel they should have access to just about everything and smokers need to step aside. If a non smokers likes a restaurant with no smoking than go find one. We have plenty. If a non smoker prefers non smoking bars than go find one.....knock of the blanket laws for all. I smoke. I am abundantly educated of what can happen if I choose to continue to smoke as is ever other smoker so it ends up being my choice.....but the laws being passed don't quite see it that way.
Jaywalking....oh I don't know. I look to my right....I look to my left.....I look to my right and than i look to my left.....possibly doing it a third time and I cross over in a diagonal manner when I see the danger of being squashed no longer is a threat. And oh my I made it across the road...and mind you I managed without a traffic light and white zebra stripes on the road. Whoa....close one eh.....to much common sense??
Fast food? Don't make me laugh how about getting rid of the entire food industry. If you actually have the well being of others on your mind (doubtful) than you would go radical all the way. Ever look at what is in a loaf of bread.....boggles the mind and makes you wonder how good old granny managed without all the chemicals. We have two food line industries. One for the Europeans one for the US. The European won't buy our crap food full of chemicals so we set up an entire export industry just for them......quite a bit better wholesome food. While we Americans get the crap....why because we say ok. Because we say I don't want to fight to have labels showing me what has been genetically modified or what hormones where used or if i am now going to eating cloned food. Nope we just shove in our tummies what they present to us.
See Jester it isn't about forcing people to do the right thing it is about educating them and giving them choices then let the individual decide what they prefer. "It's about choices." And choices create individual freedoms. So yeah my individual freedoms lack in everyday life from food to medication to what I am wearing.......because choices are disappearing rapidly.....independence and having to be responsible for oneself are big no no's. |
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Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
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theking
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Joined: Aug 19, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well Jester....it is quite personal. There are many places in my personal life "I choose" to not smoke because of my child and there are plenty of places in life where I can't smoke where I happen to agree with. Such as clothing stores, groceries stores....right next to the gas pump while pumping gas....but since we have so many non smoking areas I find the laws to be rather pushy and non smokers feel they should have access to just about everything and smokers need to step aside. If a non smokers likes a restaurant with no smoking than go find one. We have plenty. If a non smoker prefers non smoking bars than go find one.....knock of the blanket laws for all. I smoke. I am abundantly educated of what can happen if I choose to continue to smoke as is ever other smoker so it ends up being my choice.....but the laws being passed don't quite see it that way. |
Not very personal if it outwardly effects other people. is it?
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| Jaywalking....oh I don't know. I look to my right....I look to my left.....I look to my right and than i look to my left.....possibly doing it a third time and I cross over in a diagonal manner when I see the danger of being squashed no longer is a threat. And oh my I made it across the road...and mind you I managed without a traffic light and white zebra stripes on the road. Whoa....close one eh.....to much common sense?? |
Then you wouldn't get caught, now would you?
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| Fast food? Don't make me laugh how about getting rid of the entire food industry. If you actually have the well being of others on your mind (doubtful) than you would go radical all the way. Ever look at what is in a loaf of bread.....boggles the mind and makes you wonder how good old granny managed without all the chemicals. We have two food line industries. One for the Europeans one for the US. The European won't buy our crap food full of chemicals so we set up an entire export industry just for them......quite a bit better wholesome food. While we Americans get the crap....why because we say ok. Because we say I don't want to fight to have labels showing me what has been genetically modified or what hormones where used or if i am now going to eating cloned food. Nope we just shove in our tummies what they present to us |
All the better reason to restrict fast food, personally I don't eat any, as well as this diatribe having almost nothing to do with the focal point of this discussion.
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| See Jester it isn't about forcing people to do the right thing it is about educating them and giving them choices then let the individual decide what they prefer. "It's about choices." And choices create individual freedoms. So yeah my individual freedoms lack in everyday life from food to medication to what I am wearing.......because choices are disappearing rapidly.....independence and having to be responsible for oneself are big no no's. |
No kiddo, what it is, and you still fail to realize is that your actions outwardly affect people. It's not about choices, it's about how much you can get away with until you piss someone off. |
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Personanongrata
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Joined: Dec 31, 2007
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like national socialism edging into overt fascism...  We should have alienable "collective" rights that can be stripped from anyone, any group, at any time it is deemed necessary for the "greater good" of the "collective"? Is that what you're suggesting?
How much of your personal life are you willing to sacrifice for that "greater good", king? How many steps are there between telling people what they can eat and smoke, to what they can think and say?
And you say one of the reasons we should do this is because of food industry corruption and greed? Seriously?
How about better monitoring and, if necessary, punishing the industry specifically that is ignoring its responsibility to provide a reasonably safe product in favor of just making more money? Instead of concentrating on restricting and punishing the buyer, why not get tougher on the seller, make them accountable for how they run their business, for the choices they make.
Should the individual buyer be held to a higher standard, punished for their choices, while we let the seller slide?
Reality check: No one lives forever, no matter what, and life is imperfect by nature. Since that is the case, it seems being able to live our own lives and make our own choices is all that really matters along the way. People will always affect one another, for better or worse, but giving up our own choices, and the responsibility that goes with choice, will never guarantee us safety from the dangers & uncertainties of living.
Safety is an illusion, really. Any one of us could be dead tomorrow.
Eventually, all of us will be, regardless. Isn't what matters, then, responsibility & freedom. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| This is ridiculous, really. It's like you are saying an individual who makes bad choices, selfish choices, is more harmful than a corporation that does the same. The corporation obviously has more power, more ability to negatively influence, therefore it has more responsibility. |
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inja
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| theking wrote: |
Not very personal if it outwardly effects other people. is it? |
There isn't a whole lot that doesn't effect others in life.
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Then you wouldn't get caught, now would you? |
I knew it was too much common sense.
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All the better reason to restrict fast food, personally I don't eat any, as well as this diatribe having almost nothing to do with the focal point of this discussion. |
Absolutely it does. You believe in restricting peoples individual rights.
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No kiddo, what it is, and you still fail to realize is that your actions outwardly affect people. It's not about choices, it's about how much you can get away with until you piss someone off. |
All actions effect other people. Sticking with the smoking issue......non smokers effect me. No it is about choices. Always has been.....most have forgotten. When individual choice/responsibility are taken away it has a snowball effect and grows into a larger problem. Blanket statements don't work if anything they create problems. |
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First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
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martiandrifter01
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Location: Xanthe Terra, Sol IV/Mars
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I smoke, I've been known to drink on occasion, use 'foul' language and pass gas at bad times (  ). I do get tired of big-mouthed non-smokers, but mostly I ignore them. Nobody's kicked me out of anywhere for breaking no-smoking ordinances, and I usually agree with them. BUT if they expect me not to smoke on MY property, I have a rope they can urinate up, if you get my drift.
Right now, the issues are radical Muslims that will treat everyone that's not in their sect as an Infidel and kill them; drug traffickers that unwittingly support terrorism; and some of the most heinous criminals ever to walk, Child Molesters and Sexual Predators. I don't personally need protection from any of the above, but my daughter did once, and there's a lot of dead terrorism victims in the US.
My question for you, Inja, is how do we maintain our "individual freedoms" and eliminate some very bad problems at the same time? Believe me when I tell you that the bad guys are NOT stupid. |
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greeney2
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Inja you have to move to California is you want to Jaywalk. In the east they can run you down, but in California pedestrians have the right of way, you have to stop for them, thats the law here.
Smoking is another story. I think the entire state is non-smoking in restraunts, markets, public places. I don;t smoke so I'm not real sure about parks or the beach.
I can tell you if I had my way, before I retired, my company started a no smoking rule on the property. they started by making them go outside the buildings to smoke, now its all the way to the sidewalks and street. They allow workers to take a smoke break, and they are allowed to go out to the sidewalk to have it. I;m not talking at break time, they allow it when ever they need a smoke. Some people its once an hour. As far as I;m concerned, they left the plant and premisis, they should punch out and not get paid. Why is that any different than me taking the same amount of time to go on the message board, or hop in the car and be back drive the drive thru food place before they finish their smoke break?
I'm sure they will put a stop to it pretty quick, but they have allowed it to go on for about 2 years now. The out of the building policy began at least 10 years ago. |
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